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rubber bullets
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Chef Ramen
macrumors member
Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Peaceful demonstrations in Oakland meet violent resistance
quote:
Rubber Bullets Used on War Protesters in Oakland
By Jim Winborne
OAKLAND, Calif. (Reuters) - Oakland police fired rubber bullets and wooden pellets on Monday to disperse hundreds of anti-war protesters in what was believed to be the first such use against U.S. protesters since the American-led war on Iraq (news - web sites) began.
Demonstrators were seeking to block access to American President Lines, a shipping company they claimed was profiting from the war in Iraq when said they used the pellets and bullets to disperse about 750 protesters.
Several people were injured, including some who suffered large bruises. One man lifted up his shirt to show a welt about the size of a baseball.
"We gave our dispersal order, we gave them an order, we gave them ample time to disperse," said Oakland Police spokeswoman Danielle Ashford. "When we give our dispersal order, that's pretty much it. (If) there are safety issues involved, that's when we step in."
The anti-war demonstrators carried signs including "Shut down the war makers."
The action is believed to be the first police use of anti-crowd munitions against U.S. demonstrators since President Bush launched a war aimed at toppling Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.
Police continued to fire upon a group of about 150 protesters that remained in mid-morning after the initial burst of rubber bullets broke up most of the crowd. Police arrested at least a dozen demonstrators in Oakland.
San Francisco police detained about 18 protesters at the Federal Building in a separate demonstration. Several people were also reported to be blocking one of the city's main highways.
Anti-war activists in the San Francisco area said they were resuming protest actions on Monday after a period of relative quiet in a city famous for its history of dissent. Police arrested more than 2,000 people in San Francisco in the first two days of the war.
Also on Monday, New York police arrested several dozen people who blocked the entrance to the Manhattan building of the Carlyle Group, a firm which has a stake in the defense industry.
Up to three hundred people chanted: "Carlyle gets fat on war" outside the offices of the $14 billion investment group.
Police said about two or three dozen demonstrators were arrested outside the 5th Avenue building and charged with disorderly conduct.
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04-07-2003 08:51 PM
Groovsonic
macrumors member
Registered: Oct 2002
Location: Near Chicago, Illinois
This was private property they were blocking. They were tresspassing, and they were removed. They were told to leave, and they didn't. What right to they have to break the law?Should the police have left them there to interrupt business, and violate that businesses rights? I have no problem with people protesting (although at this point it seems pretty silly, since we are in baghdad already) but they shouldn't violate other peoples rights (i.e., blocking traffic, trespassing, ect...) in the process.
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04-07-2003 09:08 PM
jayscheuerle
macrumors regular
Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Philadelphia, PA- USA
Boing, boing, you're on t.v.
I agree with Groovsonic.
If you break the law, be prepared to feel the sharp sting of punishment. Use your moral superiority for salve if you need it. If you don't like the laws, work to change them. Most likely, this crowd considers the use of rubber bullets a boon to the media coverage they'll receive, which is really why they break the law in the first place. Peaceful protests don't warrant air or print space.
Unless someone lost an eye, everybody was probably pretty happy all around here. The cops got to break up the lawless protesters and the protesters got their coverage. What a great day to be an American!!
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04-07-2003 09:55 PM
NavyIntel007
macrumors regular
Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Miami, FL
Yeah for real... we tell our children to look both ways before crossing a street. These people are blocking the road... surely they should expect to be hit by something. I said it before and I'll say it again... get a F***ing job! Quit wasting the time of the 75% of us who want to feed our families.
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04-07-2003 10:23 PM
mymemory
macrumors 65816
Registered: May 2001
Location: Venezuela
I'm leaving my Sh**ty country because of those situations to fall in to another country with the same problems. Hmmm....
At list I "may" find a job in the US, that is the only difference
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04-07-2003 10:35 PM
Groovsonic
macrumors member
Registered: Oct 2002
Location: Near Chicago, Illinois
quote:
Originally posted by mymemory
I'm leaving my Sh**ty country because of those situations to fall in to another country with the same problems. Hmmm....
At list I "may" find a job in the US, that is the only difference
Just remember... about .01% of people here do stuff like this, and even then it only very rarely ends up like that, and no one was killed. At these protests, no one usually gets arrested unless they break the law. Trust me, the "problems" here are pretty small when viewed in the big picture.
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04-07-2003 11:10 PM
Stelliform
macrumors regular
Registered: Oct 2002
Location: South Louisiana, USA
quote:
Originally posted by Groovsonic
This was private property they were blocking. They were tresspassing, and they were removed. They were told to leave, and they didn't. What right to they have to break the law?Should the police have left them there to interrupt business, and violate that businesses rights?
I agree with Groovsonic. If we allow protesters to break the law without fear of punishment, then we become a lawless society. Basically this protest could be describes as a riot situation. The protestors seriously outnumbered the police, and they wouldn't follow orders. The wonderful thing about America is we can even break the law if we want. We just have to prepared to suffer the consequences of our actions.
(Like when I speed. I know I risk getting a ticket and paying alot of money. If I got 150 of my closest friends together and decided to block the entrance to a place of business. I would expect to have riot gear reactions against me. (I live in South Louisiana, so I wouldn't expect the police to be nice enough to use rubber bullets.. ))
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04-07-2003 11:34 PM
pseudobrit
macrumors 6502
Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
Randomly shooting peaceful protesters in the back is the work of tyrants.
Were I armed and at such a protest, or happening to be walking in the vicinity of one and come under fire, so help me God I would fire back with lethal force. If I saw someone shooting at me without reason I would defend myself with whatever means necessary, regardless of badges. A thug with a badge is still a thug.
We need to take these weapons away from the cops. All it does is give the gung-ho killhappy ones license to open fire and not have to file paperwork.
____
All those who seem to be in favor of these actions, let me ask you this: why is it okay to shoot protesters when arresting them is the legal recourse that should be pursued and has been effective at all other peaceful demostrations?
This is not "punishment," because the judicial system hands down such sentences. To give the police the ability to judge and punish is not Constitutional, but some of you have expressed your willingness to discard many of the provisions of that ancient piece of garbage anyway I guess.
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Last edited by pseudobrit on 04-08-2003 at 12:01 AM
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04-07-2003 11:57 PM
Sun Baked
macrumors 65816
Registered: May 2002
Location:
Skipping water cannons and going directly to rubber bullets is a bad move...
Rubber bullets can be a step below lethal force, and makes for some ugly press.
In Tucson they tried the same thing to disperse a crowd, including sending up a SWAT team snipers with lethal loads to protect the officers, and it got extremely ugly in the press.
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04-08-2003 12:09 AM
mymemory
macrumors 65816
Registered: May 2001
Location: Venezuela
quote:
Originally posted by Sun Baked
Skipping water cannons and going directly to rubber bullets is a bad move...
You just say it before me. One thing is to remove people using water than shooting at them. I'm sure they didn't have a truck with watter near by if protest are so unusual.
The thing is that the police know very well how to handle a shootgun and how to make or not harm to some one, specially when you can not detect who shooted the gun if this one really hurt some one. That kind of represion lloks too bad for a politician, trust me, I have been there about 10 times just last year.
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04-08-2003 12:28 AM
sparkleytone
macrumors 68000
Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Greensboro, NC
peaceful my ass. somehow the article just forgot to mention that the 'peaceful' demonstrators were chunking hunks of concrete and rock at people.
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04-08-2003 12:34 AM
Groovsonic
macrumors member
Registered: Oct 2002
Location: Near Chicago, Illinois
quote:
Originally posted by pseudobrit
Randomly shooting peaceful protesters in the back is the work of tyrants.
Were I armed and at such a protest, or happening to be walking in the vicinity of one and come under fire, so help me God I would fire back with lethal force. If I saw someone shooting at me without reason I would defend myself with whatever means necessary, regardless of badges. A thug with a badge is still a thug.
We need to take these weapons away from the cops. All it does is give the gung-ho killhappy ones license to open fire and not have to file paperwork.
____
All those who seem to be in favor of these actions, let me ask you this: why is it okay to shoot protesters when arresting them is the legal recourse that should be pursued and has been effective at all other peaceful demostrations?
This is not "punishment," because the judicial system hands down such sentences. To give the police the ability to judge and punish is not Constitutional, but some of you have expressed your willingness to discard many of the provisions of that ancient piece of garbage anyway I guess.
Wow, Thank you Mr. Generalization.
Let me ask you this... Should people who break the law be allowed to break the law? If they were asked/told to leave/disperse 8 times, they must have known there would be consequences. Why would you side with the lawbreakers? This was not punishment being handed down, this was an attempt to get unlawful people to disperse. I agree they should have tried watercannons first, but I wasn't there, and mabye the situation called for something else.
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04-08-2003 12:38 AM
pseudobrit
macrumors 6502
Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
quote:
Originally posted by Groovsonic
Wow, Thank you Mr. Generalization.
Let me ask you this... Should people who break the law be allowed to break the law? If they were asked/told to leave/disperse 8 times, they must have known there would be consequences. Why would you side with the lawbreakers? This was not punishment being handed down, this was an attempt to get unlawful people to disperse. I agree they should have tried watercannons first, but I wasn't there, and mabye the situation called for something else.
Well, thank you for the personal attack.
Let me ask you this... wouldn't hauling their lawbreaking butts off to jail to be thrown in front of a judge be what is supposed to happen in this nation?
Or is it okay to shoot first and not bother with the arrests and true justice?
Here's what rubber bullets do to people:
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030407/s/1049743752.2550276186.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030407/lthumb.1049738719.war_iraq_us_protests_caps105.jpg
But what the hell should we care? They're just a bunch of commie loving hippies like those bastards at Kent State...
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04-08-2003 01:21 AM
macfan
macrumors 6502
Registered: Jan 2003
Location:
pseudobrit,
quote:
Let me ask you this... wouldn't hauling their lawbreaking butts off to jail to be thrown in front of a judge be what is supposed to happen in this nation?
Or is it okay to shoot first and not bother with the arrests and true justice?
It is important to have more of the facts before deeming this another case of the "Boston Massacre" (an incident where force was justified, BTW). However, if the "peaceful protesters" were chunking metal objects at the cops, they should feel lucky that some of them are not dead.
Sometimes it is justified to use force to disperse a crowd. Sometimes this is not the work or tyrants. Whether this is one such case we can't tell yet, but the police don't have beanbag guns for decoration, and if the protesters were chunking metal objects at the cops, then my sympathy for their injuries is somewhat limited.
Sometimes, it is even justified for the SWAT team to shoot someone in the head from 300 yards. No trial, no arrest, just a decision to use deadly force.
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04-08-2003 02:27 AM
ddtlm
macrumors 6502
Registered: Aug 2001
Location:
pseudobrit:
quote:
...the work of tyrants. ... Were I armed and at such a protest ... so help me God I would fire back with lethal force. ... We need to take these weapons away from the cops.
Prior to this thread I though you were just anti-war, but now I think you're simply disfunctional. I just can't wrap my mind around what your world view appears to be. I'm glad that I don't know anyone like you here in the "real" world.
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04-08-2003 02:35 AM
Rower_CPU
macrumors Demi-God (Moderator)
Registered: Oct 2001
Location: San Diego
Let's keep this discussion on-topic and free from personal attacks.
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04-08-2003 03:06 AM
pseudobrit
macrumors 6502
Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
quote:
Originally posted by macfan
pseudobrit,
It is important to have more of the facts before deeming this another case of the "Boston Massacre" (an incident where force was justified, BTW). However, if the "peaceful protesters" were chunking metal objects at the cops, they should feel lucky that some of them are not dead.
Sometimes it is justified to use force to disperse a crowd. Sometimes this is not the work or tyrants. Whether this is one such case we can't tell yet, but the police don't have beanbag guns for decoration, and if the protesters were chunking metal objects at the cops, then my sympathy for their injuries is somewhat limited.
Sometimes, it is even justified for the SWAT team to shoot someone in the head from 300 yards. No trial, no arrest, just a decision to use deadly force.
Who said the protesters were throwing stuff? The police. The same police that shot an unarmed and handcuffed black man last year because "he was going for my gun" and got off scot-free.
You can use force to justify dispersal of a crowd -- an anrgy, violent mob that is out of control. That was clearly not the situation here. Even if one or two people were throwing things, that does not give the police authority to shoot randomly into a peaceful but defiant crowd. Military -- yes. Police -- no.
SWAT teams and snipers are only allowed to do head shots with approval from a higher authority and only then when not taking it would put someone else's life at risk (i.e. a hostage situation or if the subject is heavily armed/ wearing body armor etc.)
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04-08-2003 03:11 AM
jayscheuerle
macrumors regular
Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Philadelphia, PA- USA
Watch out!!
There's a new breed of peaceful protesters out there. We call them "idiots".
They were in town for the Republican Convention a couple of years ago, tipping over dumpsters, lighting cars on fire, grafittiing everything in sight, running down busy streets knocking children over. About the only thing they didn't do was bathe. Their protests had neither message or focus, but did have a purpose– to disrupt the establishment, inconvenience others and get on television. The Philly cops were GREAT! They hauled them off left and right, pumped up the charges and didn't even let them post bail until the event was over. Then let most of them go back to mummy and daddy ("My son's a good kid, honest!").
These punks needed a water canon with soap in it and a summer job. - j
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04-08-2003 03:19 AM
MrMacman
macrumors 68000
Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Look Beind you, hehe, no. Great Neck, NY
quote:
Originally posted by sparkleytone
peaceful my ass. somehow the article just forgot to mention that the 'peaceful' demonstrators were chunking hunks of concrete and rock at people.
*sparkleytone throws small rock at macman*
Me: Okay, I WARNED YOU!
*sparkley looks purplexed* About wha...
Me: Thats it Final warning! : pumps rumber bullet shotgun:
*sparkley oh no*
Me: *fires at sparkley, round after round*
I WARNED YOU, REMEMBE THAT!
Ruber Bullets is not = to small rocks
Rubber Bullets > rocks
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04-08-2003 03:20 AM
QCassidy352
macrumors member
Registered: Mar 2003
Location:
"why is it okay to shoot protesters when arresting them is the legal recourse that should be pursued and has been effective at all other peaceful demostrations?"
Shall I take the fact that none of you answered this point to mean that you have no answer for it?
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04-08-2003 03:33 AM
Stelliform
macrumors regular
Registered: Oct 2002
Location: South Louisiana, USA
quote:
Originally posted by QCassidy352
"why is it okay to shoot protesters when arresting them is the legal recourse that should be pursued and has been effective at all other peaceful demostrations?"
Shall I take the fact that none of you answered this point to mean that you have no answer for it?
Because there is no way to peacefully arrest this illegal mob. Don't forget the facts before you extend your sympathies. These people were trespassing. They were not following orders from the police to disperse.
I am positive that there are more facts that are not being reported...
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04-08-2003 05:07 AM
pseudobrit
macrumors 6502
Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
quote:
Originally posted by Stelliform
Because there is no way to peacefully arrest this illegal mob. Don't forget the facts before you extend your sympathies. These people were trespassing. They were not following orders from the police to disperse.
No? What's been going on for the past month then? There have been countless demostrations larger than this and more illegal things happening. This is the first incidence where police have shot protesters.
Arrest happened peacefully in those cases.
What makes this case any different?
You can't ignore these facts in order to make an argument, unless of couse you didn't want to make a very good argument.
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04-08-2003 05:18 AM
macfan
macrumors 6502
Registered: Jan 2003
Location:
quote:
Originally posted by pseudobrit
No? What's been going on for the past month then? There have been countless demostrations larger than this and more illegal things happening. This is the first incidence where police have shot protesters.
Arrest happened peacefully in those cases.
What makes this case any different?
You can't ignore these facts in order to make an argument, unless of couse you didn't want to make a very good argument.
We don't know the facts on this case yet, but you have already decided that there is no way that use of these crowd dispersal weapons could have been justified. Maybe it wasn't justified, but your naked prejudice against the police is shining through brightly.
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04-08-2003 07:19 AM
pseudobrit
macrumors 6502
Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
quote:
Originally posted by macfan
We don't know the facts on this case yet, but you have already decided that there is no way that use of these crowd dispersal weapons could have been justified. Maybe it wasn't justified, but your naked prejudice against the police is shining through brightly.
I've seen stuff with my own two eyes that would make any American fear the power of the police in this nation.
Plus, many of the protesters were shot *in the back*.
C'mon now, you'd be the first to jump on a story with half this info if it said they found chemical weapons in Iraq. No double standards...
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04-08-2003 07:22 AM
macfan
macrumors 6502
Registered: Jan 2003
Location:
quote:
Originally posted by pseudobrit
I've seen stuff with my own two eyes that would make any American fear the power of the police in this nation.
Plus, many of the protesters were shot *in the back*.
C'mon now, you'd be the first to jump on a story with half this info if it said they found chemical weapons in Iraq. No double standards...
Here's what I had to say about the chemical weapons finds on a previous thread:
quote:
Given the history of Saddam, I expect that WMDs will be found in Iraq, but there aren't any confirmed reports from the US yet, just initial reports from field units. It seems some have been found already, including some on rockets, but inital press reports are often wrong, so it's important not to jump to conclusions.
This would tend to indicate that I am not the first to jump on a story with half this info if it said they found chemical weapons in Iraq. When you want to accuse someone of double standards, you should at least try to have actual evidence instead of just relying on your prejudices about how you think someone might react to a story.
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04-08-2003 07:40 AM
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